Great question! I was thinking elbow only— if we go foot or other stick, we get a much longer list, going all the way back to Dodds..please chime in with any info you have!
I was mostly kidding, although I'd be curious to know whether these different ways of achieving tones sound different or whether it's merely a question of the individual's preference and/or visual performance style (e.g., Han Bennink is comedic and undignified -- or anti-dignified).
I just took a quick look at the transcription of Jo Jones' commentary on his album "The Drums" because I remembered him drawing a distinction between a rimshot and "stick on stick" so I thought he might talk about bending notes somewhere, but a quick scan didn't turn up anything.
I was also thinking of Ed Thigpen's "Mr. Taste" CD, where he uses a tom-tom w/ a foot pedal on an uptempo "'Round Midnight." This isn't something I've encountered anywhere else. But it did put me in mind of the West African "talking drum" and that in turn made me wonder if the elbow-on-drumhead technique was inspired by the talking drum. (And as long as we're free associating, Gary Burton is famous for bending notes on the vibraphone, I believe using one of his mallets to bend the bar and the other to strike it.)
I'm not a historian or drummer myself, so I don't have any special insights... but I'm intrigued by the implication that the Dodds approach was abandoned "in favor" (?) of the elbow by later drummers...
Before this week, when I listened to "Un Poco Loco" over and over, trying to take it in so I could share something about with you, I did not consider Dodds' 1944 solos to be free improvisations, but now, after a week thinking about Shelly and "Un Poco Loco", I do!
This is a complicated and fascinating discussion-- because it's impossible to diminish the innovative and beautiful music of Cecil and Ornette etc., but I'm starting to realize that there's long been, for lack of a better term, an 'avant-garde' strain in the music, probably since the very beginning. And I think that drums and drummers are at the center of that strain.
Yea, I've always wondered when "free" playing had its genesis. Were there cats in New Orleans doing a "new thing" in a backroom at a Storyville cafe? "Free" playing has probably been around as long as individual humans has been vocalizing and playing rattles and drums. The mystery is when did groups come together to play "free".
Right— when it became something that musicians wanted to do together for listeners…I think you’re right that the impulse to “just play” is as old as humanity…that Louis Armstrong quote at the beginning of John Szwed’s Sun Ra bio…”our music is a secret society” (forgive if I’m mangling the quote, I don’t have the book with me on the road!) Thank you Mr. Soph!
These solos are so moving; you can hear humor, bravado, humility…the whole spectrum of emotion in Sid’s playing…thank you for sharing Mr. Soph…this is the stuff we need to hear, keep all comments and links coming!!!
Mr. Manne made a series of live albums or more to the point, Contemporary Records released a series of albums recorded "Live at The Blackhawk" over 4 days in September of 1959–each one swings mightily, plenty of fine solos, and never boring. Great music as is "Un Poco Loco"!
You do know the book about Shelly "Sounds of The Different Drummer" by Jack Brand and Bill Korst? All the information about Shelly including a transcription of the Un Poco Loco solo is in that book. Also a complete list of all his recording sessions and studio sessions.
Regarding early free drumming, don't forget the LP The Three from September 10, 1954. Co-led by Shorty Rogers, Jimmy Giuffre, and Shelly Manne. In 2009, I presented a research paper at the Society for American music annual conference. It was titled The Rest Was Free, Just Blowing" (etc) I discussed The Three and The Two among many other things.
Do you know the NY trumpet player John McNeil? When I was working with him in his band Hush Point, my job (at first) was to play like Shelly Manne on The Three and The Two-- we covered a Giuffre tune from that record, and that was my blueprint for the band.
The alto saxophonist in the band, Jeremy Udden, was really responsible for making me aware of Shelly and the whole West Coast free thing, pre-Ornette.
This is a fascinating topic, and The Three and The Two was in my mind when I was writing about how Shelly was certainly suggesting free improvisation, if not quite whole hog doing it...
Yes, the Lord Discography lists Shelly as the drummer. (I prefer the Lord Discography to other Internet info.)
Do you have any info on the movie soundtracks Shelly played on? I have yet to come across anything definitive, and I only glanced at the MD interview...need to revisit...if you have any info, even things you've heard, please share them here!
Hi Roberto, yes, I was surprised to hear his father say Man-EE as well….at my soundcheck today I played that Un Poco Loco motif and realized it was a just a short jump from there to Max’s Big Sid….it’s all connected! Thank you for reading and subscribing, please stay in touch!
Another great read!! Thanks Vin
Aww thanks Ethan!! And HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!
great read! love footnote 7
Ha! That was shout out to you Erez! Glad you caught it!!
Are you guys distinguishing between elbow, other stick, and foot on the drumhead 😉
Great question! I was thinking elbow only— if we go foot or other stick, we get a much longer list, going all the way back to Dodds..please chime in with any info you have!
I was mostly kidding, although I'd be curious to know whether these different ways of achieving tones sound different or whether it's merely a question of the individual's preference and/or visual performance style (e.g., Han Bennink is comedic and undignified -- or anti-dignified).
I just took a quick look at the transcription of Jo Jones' commentary on his album "The Drums" because I remembered him drawing a distinction between a rimshot and "stick on stick" so I thought he might talk about bending notes somewhere, but a quick scan didn't turn up anything.
I was also thinking of Ed Thigpen's "Mr. Taste" CD, where he uses a tom-tom w/ a foot pedal on an uptempo "'Round Midnight." This isn't something I've encountered anywhere else. But it did put me in mind of the West African "talking drum" and that in turn made me wonder if the elbow-on-drumhead technique was inspired by the talking drum. (And as long as we're free associating, Gary Burton is famous for bending notes on the vibraphone, I believe using one of his mallets to bend the bar and the other to strike it.)
I'm not a historian or drummer myself, so I don't have any special insights... but I'm intrigued by the implication that the Dodds approach was abandoned "in favor" (?) of the elbow by later drummers...
This is a terrific article, thanks! I have a question. Do you consider Baby Dodds' "Drum Set Improvisations", recorded in 1946, "free" solos?
Mr Soph, thank you for reading and your inquiry!
Before this week, when I listened to "Un Poco Loco" over and over, trying to take it in so I could share something about with you, I did not consider Dodds' 1944 solos to be free improvisations, but now, after a week thinking about Shelly and "Un Poco Loco", I do!
This is a complicated and fascinating discussion-- because it's impossible to diminish the innovative and beautiful music of Cecil and Ornette etc., but I'm starting to realize that there's long been, for lack of a better term, an 'avant-garde' strain in the music, probably since the very beginning. And I think that drums and drummers are at the center of that strain.
That's my current thinking! What's yours?
Thank you Mr. Soph!
Yea, I've always wondered when "free" playing had its genesis. Were there cats in New Orleans doing a "new thing" in a backroom at a Storyville cafe? "Free" playing has probably been around as long as individual humans has been vocalizing and playing rattles and drums. The mystery is when did groups come together to play "free".
Right— when it became something that musicians wanted to do together for listeners…I think you’re right that the impulse to “just play” is as old as humanity…that Louis Armstrong quote at the beginning of John Szwed’s Sun Ra bio…”our music is a secret society” (forgive if I’m mangling the quote, I don’t have the book with me on the road!) Thank you Mr. Soph!
Another musical drum soloist is Sidney "Big Sid" Catlett. Check out his solo on "Steak Face"
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGLGV5Irw_Q ) and "Boff Boff"(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCnGG--Uxjs&list=RDqCnGG--Uxjs&start_radio=1 ). You'll hear where Max Roach got his theme for the solo, "One For Big Sid".
These solos are so moving; you can hear humor, bravado, humility…the whole spectrum of emotion in Sid’s playing…thank you for sharing Mr. Soph…this is the stuff we need to hear, keep all comments and links coming!!!
Mr. Manne made a series of live albums or more to the point, Contemporary Records released a series of albums recorded "Live at The Blackhawk" over 4 days in September of 1959–each one swings mightily, plenty of fine solos, and never boring. Great music as is "Un Poco Loco"!
Yes! Love the first volume, looking forward to hearing the rest! Thank you Richard!
You do know the book about Shelly "Sounds of The Different Drummer" by Jack Brand and Bill Korst? All the information about Shelly including a transcription of the Un Poco Loco solo is in that book. Also a complete list of all his recording sessions and studio sessions.
Ah! I do NOT know this book! Thank you for telling me about it Michael! That’s what this is all about!! Many thanks!
It's expensive, but worth it. If you have trouble finding a copy, please get in touch.
Regarding early free drumming, don't forget the LP The Three from September 10, 1954. Co-led by Shorty Rogers, Jimmy Giuffre, and Shelly Manne. In 2009, I presented a research paper at the Society for American music annual conference. It was titled The Rest Was Free, Just Blowing" (etc) I discussed The Three and The Two among many other things.
Thank you for your great columns!
Thank you Carl, this is juice this column needs!!
Do you know the NY trumpet player John McNeil? When I was working with him in his band Hush Point, my job (at first) was to play like Shelly Manne on The Three and The Two-- we covered a Giuffre tune from that record, and that was my blueprint for the band.
The alto saxophonist in the band, Jeremy Udden, was really responsible for making me aware of Shelly and the whole West Coast free thing, pre-Ornette.
This is a fascinating topic, and The Three and The Two was in my mind when I was writing about how Shelly was certainly suggesting free improvisation, if not quite whole hog doing it...
Any more info you'd like to share, please do so!
Thank you Carl!
i believe shelly manne is also the drummer on peggy lee's fever... great drum track on that one as well.. great article.. thanks vinnie!
Hi James,
Yes, the Lord Discography lists Shelly as the drummer. (I prefer the Lord Discography to other Internet info.)
Do you have any info on the movie soundtracks Shelly played on? I have yet to come across anything definitive, and I only glanced at the MD interview...need to revisit...if you have any info, even things you've heard, please share them here!
Thanks for reading!
thanks vinnie - i am not up on this, but i was so intrigued with the drum track on peggy lees fever, i had to look it up! cheers james
Hi Roberto, yes, I was surprised to hear his father say Man-EE as well….at my soundcheck today I played that Un Poco Loco motif and realized it was a just a short jump from there to Max’s Big Sid….it’s all connected! Thank you for reading and subscribing, please stay in touch!
Yes, his last name is pronounced Mann-ee, but just like Motian started to use the wrong pronunciation of his last name, Shelly also started using it.
I didn’t know this…acculturation is a powerful process (assuming this is acculturation at work— which I think it is)